00:00:08,600	S1:
They're splitting the difference between the two clocks that are in my vision and hoping that my phone is actually turned off. Um, I would like to, um, announce that this is 3:00 in the afternoon of Wednesday, February 21st, 2024, and we are in the Tom Baker meeting room. And whoever's out there in the the nebulous world to conduct the Historic Preservation Commission meeting.

00:00:41,880	Uh, Sandra, would you call the roll, please? S2:
Mike Connolly here. Damita Engel here. Tory Jackson here. John Swanson here. Beth Nodland here. Chair Sakariassan here.

00:00:53,000	S1:
All right. Uh, the first thing we need to do, of course, is to. Before I forget, thank community Access TV. For providing this this some visual thing for the community on what we're doing here. Um, and the next thing is to consider approval of the minutes for the January 2024 meeting.

00:01:18,100	Has everybody had a chance to look at them? S1:
We have a motion to approve from Commissioner Swanson.

00:01:22,020	Do we have a second? S2:
Second.

00:01:22,660	S1:
We have a second from Commissioner Engel. Any discussion or corrections? Hearing none.

00:01:30,940	Sandra, would you please call the roll? S2:
Commissioner. Engel. Yes. Jackson. Yes. Swanson. Yes. Nodland. Yes. Connelly. Yes. Chair. Sakariassan. Yes.

00:01:43,140	S1:
All right. Well, um, I would like then to move to the public comment period. First, because I believe we have somebody who is here and might like to address us with what she's brought.

00:02:00,640	S1:
We're not all right. It's just a thought. We have a member of the Bismarck community that brought in a North Dakota architect magazine, the official publication for North Dakota. Um, and, uh, presented it to us. It has featured in it. Highland acres historic district. So we have copies for people here. And we thank Mrs. Steiger for bringing these to us. Thank you.

00:02:33,080	S3:
More copies. Let me know. There's a bunch here.

00:02:35,560	S1:
All right. Thank you very much. We really appreciate that. It's really exciting to see our first really big project.

00:02:42,280	S4:
Commissioner, I haven't seen the air on any of our lists for mailers from us or to us. From them. This is the first time we've gotten this, but I think just given there might be a half a dozen architectural firms in Bismarck, I would suggest that we give them our timeline book and start including them on any of our lists of people that should be contacted.

00:03:07,020	S1:
I don't even think that needs a motion. I think that that's a clear, um, clearly good direction for us, for us to go with that. So Lauren will leave you to make notes on that. And and I'm happy to drag them around and deliver them if we need to.

00:03:24,660	S2:
Well.

00:03:25,940	S4:
Bonnie, you would be there.

00:03:30,660	Her contact or our contact? S3:
Actually, I am the executive director of the state.

00:03:34,740	S4:
Oh, I see. Okay.

00:03:36,180	S3:
So Stacy named in the magazine. Okay. Um, is that is my successor and the meaning of this decision.

00:03:46,540	S1:
All right. Super. Thank you. So we can contact her and and get that. Thanks. Thank you, John, for bringing that up. A really good point. Um, well, moving on, I don't think we have anything that I know of that's popping up for other access off site. So we will move on to the regular agenda and move on to the 2022 Historic Preservation Fund grant update.

00:04:31,850	Have we ever seen that before? S5:
Good afternoon. Chair. Commissioners. Um, I am pretty sure you guys are well aware of where we're at with the 2022. So I'll just give a brief overview of, uh, just some of the updates we have for this grant. So at your last meeting in January, there was discussion about the design of the Highland Acres Street light banners. The banner subcommittee has met and has created some potential designs for your consideration.

00:05:00,710	S5:
So the next few slides will be just kind of showing you some of these potential designs for how the banners could look. Um, obviously this isn't to size of what it would be, but it gives a general overview of just some of the designs we have for it.

00:05:19,590	S1:
So and if I'm not mistaken, I think Blake was able to sort of put in when he was laying these things out, the general dimensions that they would have to fill.

00:05:31,270	S5:
It was slightly off from what the general, uh, dimensions were, but not by much. Um, so those could be adjusted as needed.

00:05:42,950	S1:
Of course. I'm so old I can't read the white lettering at the bottom, but.

00:05:47,390	S3:
I didn't even see.

00:05:47,990	S1:
That. Yeah, so I think that's that's a little note.

00:05:53,050	S4:
It's very.

00:05:53,570	S1:
Good. Yeah. So I think. Oh, well. So, uh, so we'll, um, change that color on that. Obviously, if we can't see it that well from here.

00:06:03,690	S3:
Is this that it would be all of these, each of these or just pick one of them?

00:06:09,330	S5:
Uh.

00:06:11,530	S1:
I can take this one. Um, we had the original the the discussion that we had when we were developing this was to have, um, perhaps three, four, four, probably 4 or 5 designs because it doesn't change the cost if it's just to switch the image, it's not it's not that big a change in the, in the, the banner design itself. Um, as long as the images fit within the, the same space. Um, so we had thought to have several um. not exactly themes, but kind of categories. Um, for Highland Acres, we really liked the idea of the plat map because it kind of and perhaps positioning those at the, at the entrances more or less to the in the locations close to the entrance, so that you are reminded that you're going to be entering something that's not gridded. And it's kind of a I think of it as potentially having a traffic calming concept to it. You know, you're, you know, you're going into curvy. There are a lot of people that are going to go in there that haven't been in that neighborhood. You know, people from out of this community will take a look through if they're interested in historical things. So giving a sort of a general idea that this is not your gridded neighborhood, I think is is perhaps helpful. Um, at those points. Then we thought to have overviews and an idea, a nod to the, um, the basic house style that more or less distinguished the mid-century. Take beginnings, seeds of that neighborhood. Um, so we like the we went into the, um, archives again and went through the Highland Acres folder and, and pulled out and got some, um, some nice views of just that. I think it's different, you know, to see a blueprint sort of thing. Um, and then, um, overview showing the topography and also, you know, before the see the topography and you can see up at, um, Bismarck State College, it's got that little goofy, um, zigzag roof, which is, of course, mid-century modern in its, in its origins and just giving the a feel of of what that looks like from a different vantage point and then a an idea of what, um, the street. What's the next one? Okay. Uh, we took we went to the property cards and took pictures because everybody's property cards have a picture of their house, and some of them still have the really pretty old ones, because you can't always get a good picture of houses in that neighborhood. We've had a lot of trouble finding just unique shots of particular houses as they were closer to when they were built, and so these were ones that we selected that sort of give you a general idea of assortment, of development, of style. And then the other was, um, the the curves. The curve of the street there and the rather uniform setbacks. But also in this case, you notice that it's taken before the trees were, you know, the plantings were really established. So you can actually see the relationship of the houses to each other. And you can see that in at this time, the sidewalks were not, um, are not visible on that. And that was something that we've always mentioned as something that was a planned part of that, at least parts of that, that neighborhood. So this is kind of a nice nod to, um, how the street sort of curves and looks and, and the relative modesty of a lot of the blocks in the neighborhood. So that's I think we we wanted to have, um, a picture. We were kind of thinking that as we develop, um, other, other banners that maybe there's like a we should have these categories that we can tick off. You know, this neighbor, you know, we should have we should have a person. We should have an old, you know, sort of. But, you know, continuity is never going to be our thing. But we were actually unable to find a good photograph of a person to use to use on that. That would be useful in any way, you know, there. So it seemed to serves no purpose. So I don't know whether two of these overview ones are necessary or not, but that's what we that's what we have decided to run with from the subcommittee. So.

00:11:31,280	S1:
So Lauren can continue. If anybody needs to have more explanation.

00:11:36,240	S3:
Can we can we comment now or do you want to do that later?

00:11:39,400	S1:
Let's let her get done with this. And we can comment after she's finished.

00:11:46,340	S5:
Based on the updated potential designs that you've just seen. Staff have obtained quotes for the banners, including mounting hardware, additional design and installation. Based on the sign, companies contacted, Indigo Signs has submitted the lowest quote. Um. Staff recommends reviewing the design and potentially providing any feedback. If you are satisfied with the design, please provide staff direction on how to move forward. If you would like to contract with Indigo Signs for the creation installation of the Highland Acres Street Light banners, please make a motion so staff knows.

00:12:21,700	S1:
And that's something we need to actually move on because that's one of our our ticking, ticking clock things. So, um, the one thing I will add is that, um, one of the challenges in figuring out, um, banners for this is the fact that Highland Acres mid-century modern is essentially horizontal. And so to get to get, you can't actually take a picture of a of a mid-century modern long house with a funny ceiling and have it fit on a banner of this dimension. It just doesn't work. So that's why Blake went with changing the, um, the Highland Acres Historic District wording to be at the bottom and add that little bit because it enabled us to create a more, um, Polaroid shape, a more a shorter rectangle to work with, which then, um, it doesn't. So it was kind of trying to pick things that would fit that, that we could convey on there and and not have it look like it just cut one part of the house and stuck it on there. So it was fairly challenging to decide how to present that. And I know at one point we had the word the Holiday Acres Historic District going up the side. And then that was that was even skinnier rising. Don't you love my use of the English language? Um, the the field which you with which you could work. So now we're down at the bottom, and I think it'll be actually easier to read. I know that that was something that Commissioner Nodland brought up a number of times, that we don't want things to be too distracting. And so these are fairly simple to catch. And with the historic district being easily readable at the bottom, once we get the color changed, I think that that's solves some of that problem.

00:14:39,560	S1:
Anyway, so, um, did we have some comments that we wish to?

00:14:51,000	S3:
I do, I chair Sakariassan. Um, so I guess it's really hard to see from from where I'm sitting. If it's on a fly, on a pole, a light pole, and I'm driving by or walking by. I can see that one pretty well. But the others with the smaller houses, um, I'm not sure that I would be able to tell what that is, so I, I guess what I think whomever could do is mark one up or do a 3D thing that shows us what what do they what are they going to look like from a car? Or because this is a driving neighborhood and walking, but I don't I'm not able to see what they are. And so it's not just the words, but um, but I. So I guess I would ask that my other question on the first one on the plot map is I'm going to again ask this is, is this this is this the original design for the neighborhood? Okay. So if we if some architect designed a beautiful 45 story building, but a 35 story one was built, would the historic district celebrate the 45 story one or the 35 story one? So I guess what I'm wondering is this is a beautiful map, but it's not as built. It's not what the historic district neighborhood is.

00:16:15,070	S1:
And so we were going for the, um, a nod to the original intent and at least one of these because nothing else is the way that it was originally done. So going back to one, because no document.

00:16:29,510	S3:
Because this has had the controversy about the sidewalks, now we are emphasizing in one photo that there weren't sidewalks, and now we're showing a map where the sidewalks were going to be in the center of the blocks. So I'm just I'm just that's my opinion, is that I love this map. It's beautiful, but it's not Highland Acres. What what was built. And so for. I'm just wondering if if we have a beautiful map of what actually got built.

00:16:56,530	S1:
Well, we kind of don't. Okay. Which is one of the reasons that that this is, is the one we is what we looked at because it actually fits the space. And it actually is one of the few, um, items in that big folder that we have that shows, um, that shows anything that will fit there that has, I mean, and I don't think that it's it's certainly not antagonistic, you know, I mean, it's not it's just a, It's a way of looking at what, um. What people were thinking. You know, we do that a lot in the cathedral district, too. You you look at the trees that are planted in the cathedral district. They were almost all elms. That was planned. No, we're putting a bunch of other trees in that aren't elms. That's not what they intended, but are nod to what the intent was is evidenced in that, um, twining tree things, because that was what the intent was. It isn't over most of the neighborhood anymore. So it's just a nod to to the history, historical roots. Um, as far as the one with the four images, um, I had, we had first looked at it with three, so they were bigger, and that might be that there were versions of that. That might be, um, make it easier. It's just what I think you are expected to pick up on. These is sort of a general contour and shape, you know, that you're looking at, you see the the roof lines, you see some different things. That's what you catch. People aren't sitting there at those banners with, you know, binoculars looking at them. And we're not, you know, expecting that, but they just are a kind of a reflection on the stylistic range at that point. So that's but I do agree, I think that three would be more effective. Commissioner Connolly.

00:19:19,090	S6:
The sidewalk discussion and all the growth that led up to it and everything, all of that's also become part of its history. And that just like regardless of the decision made and everything that led up to it. At any point in time, because of how our government works, and we talked about it at the city Commission meeting. The neighborhood could also petition for the opposite of what they did, to which then would fold over into its history, because history doesn't stop. So when I look at it and my mind doesn't travel to the sidewalks and those things, is the architecture, those type of things. Hopefully people are driving slow enough to where they can pick up on the images. If if they're not, it's because they have other things on their mind and they wouldn't see the images. Half the time they don't see people or cars if they're driving that way or they're distracted. Um, but as far as the colors and things, um, if the darker green were moved up to that center portion and down below it being a darker highlighted letter because I have just enough graphic design background. It'll draw out those markers from the top on the bottom with that offset of lettering. Um, when you make frames or banners around artwork, you're always what colors will bring out the least represented color in the center of the piece? So a darker letter on white backdrop with the color on that center banner might be something to consider.

00:20:56,370	S1:
Throw those things to the designer.

00:21:01,210	S1:
Yes.

00:21:02,490	S4:
Um, this particular image is one that I, uh. The only reason I might have any problem with it is that there are going to be for people in Highland Acres who have their houses on the signs, and the the rest of the neighborhood is going to wonder, well, where is my house? Why isn't it showing up there? I mean, just, you know, as an optional consideration or a consideration anyway. But. And then the first one of the actual plat map. Um, I thought that's I think that's interesting. And I like Michael was saying there's no, I mean, the sidewalk not really relevant at that scale for what you're looking at. But, uh, it brings me back to the original one that we looked at at the last meeting, which was just an artistic rendition of the, you know, which in some ways, now I'm starting to, like, even better than I did. And then I did before, and I liked it before because it was a, you know, the modernist, you know, mid-century sort of design to it. Um, Lauren, can you go back to there's one with the elevation and the floor plan? Yeah. Um, that I think is not fitting. For one thing, the lettering is, is probably either Art Deco or Art Nouveau, one of the two, or early Prairie School architecture, which is not a really, you know. I mean, not in the Frank Lloyd Wright sense of the word, but, um, you know, most ranch houses sort of evolved from some of Wright's thinking about house plans and so on. But but I just I just think that that that's just doesn't kind of match the neighborhood. I mean, in terms of time because of the lettering and the font type. Um, I guess that's all I had a comment about, but I think, uh.

00:22:55,660	S1:
Well, and that's one we actually pulled out of the folder.

00:22:58,220	S7:
Did you really? Yeah.

00:22:59,220	S4:
Okay.

00:22:59,780	S1:
That was one of the, um, one of the things for one of the early one of the earliest ones they were doing, um, the, the only the thing that appeals in that one is that if you drive around that particular roof, you see it everywhere when you go in those lower parts. And so that's I think that's why we picked that one. There weren't a lot of, um, um, of Blueprint Blue blueprints in there. Um, this was one of the ones that could actually fit. I so that's why we didn't we didn't change the font that was on it. We just.

00:23:41,240	S7:
Copy it.

00:23:42,280	S1:
But that's, you know, that's the that roof line is the one that. That was kind of what I think was I was going for because you don't see the roof line individually and the other ones and the other images we have because you almost can't once they get trees on them, they don't have anything. So they may not be the nicest looking pictures, but they're the only ones where you can see either the topography or a house element or anything. Um, this was not this is not that an easy, easy one to figure out? Um, so.

00:24:20,800	S8:
We're just going to ask the rest of the commissioners how they felt about the number of banners that we've designed. Now having something different at the entrances and then having some other types scattered around, is that, are you guys all okay with that or.

00:24:38,940	S8:
Or do you want to see one banner?

00:24:41,860	S4:
I'd be okay with the map at the at the beginning and the end of the access, you know, points on to the site. I think that would be an interesting idea of. But then on the interior spaces, handle it in some other fashion.

00:24:59,180	S1:
Just a random. There are a lot of spots, you know.

00:25:03,460	S7:
Yeah.

00:25:04,260	S1:
We're looking at the map that has all the spots that he has picked out and and trying to figure out where you can get for in a run that aren't the same, you know, but they're not going to be that close together. So I think that'll be that much of a problem. But overall, do people think we were headed there? I mean, we can we can tweak a bit, but I know we have to get a motion and we have to get something going. If we, um, if we as a commission are not happy with this, then we have to get get going. We can tweak a lot of things, do it.

00:25:48,840	But, um, what are we thinking? S6:
Well, one thing I would add to it though, thinking out loud when I mentioned the white bottom with the black letters and things. When you see a print like this with so much white eyes tend to bleed out from the page. So at all it's harder. Um, if there was a at least a small, say, black pin stripe all the way around, the black would bleed it in towards the actual content. Your eyes would bleed in to the things that are in. Draw out those lines a little bit too, so it might make it. That's just aesthetically how the I's like to work. And the last time I took the graphic design classes were in the early 90s. So there might be nude rules, but those are the things I remember.

00:26:46,100	S1:
Well, we can take all these comments and I'm pretty sure we can act on all of them. I know we can reduce, um, how many images are in the one with four. That's the simple thing that would make something make things bigger.

00:27:01,900	S4:
Could we flip through the four once?

00:27:16,920	S4:
Could you go back to that one just previous?

00:27:35,800	S9:
Next one.

00:27:40,720	S10:
I wonder if anyone has too much sky in it. Look, it's just it looks a little light on top. I don't know if we can if that can be adjusted. I don't know what the original photo looks like.

00:27:50,200	S1:
I suppose we could sepia it.

00:27:52,200	S7:
Yeah.

00:27:55,080	S1:
Well.

00:27:56,000	S8:
I think some of the, the lower down, the cement part of that is buried behind the tree or the hills rather. So we could probably bring it up and crop the top of it to eliminate some of that.

00:28:08,280	S1:
That one. See if we can shift that one up.

00:28:10,520	S10:
But I agree with Commissioner Connelly. I think a maybe a border along some of them would be a good idea, and obviously the letters need to be different, but otherwise I think they look pretty good. I sort of like the direction you're going.

00:28:23,550	S1:
Well.

00:28:24,310	S11:
I said it was tricky.

00:28:25,270	S1:
I mean, that was one of the the reasons we kind of were playing with that one design Will did all those years ago now, because it is very it's very challenging to figure out a way to, to go with this. Um, now and because there are so few photographs that that, you know, I mean, I work in the archives, I work in the photo archives, and I go through these collections. I'm working in the collection now, and they have been for a couple of years from the 50s, from the Bismarck Tribune, which should have a million pictures of things going on in Highland Acres, and almost none of them could you use on the back of a cigarette pack? I mean, they're terrible pictures. They just they. There's nothing that. And because it's not, it was never a neighborhood that was on its way to something else. So for the Tribune to cover things that are happening, they weren't covering things that were happening in Highland Acres because they weren't they weren't going past in their car taking a picture of something. So every once in a while you get maybe a lemonade stand, but not very often.

00:29:50,570	S2:
Um.

00:29:51,610	S8:
Circling back to why we have banners in a historic district would probably be a good recap right now is you want to know where you are. So having a standardized Highland Acres Historic District on the bottom so you, you know, you're in that district, um, giving people a taste of what it's important for which, for those reasons, the hills, the trees, whatever. Um, but then also you want them to want more information and we're going to provide that in the walking tour, driving tour brochures to go with it. So again, this is just supposed to be you're still here. You're, you're in the, the district. So I think for that and clearly the, the state Historical Society was not happy with our, our other version of that. So this I hopefully will.

00:30:43,990	S1:
Give them specify in their criticisms that the the Highland Acres Historic District should be at the bottom or at the top.

00:30:55,270	S10:
Did the subcommittee consider an old photo of the elementary school? Did you find any?

00:31:02,390	S1:
Again, its configuration is so horizontal that we went over everything we could find in it. It's just it's it's really. It's really hard. I did have a photograph of Herman Leonard and, um, Jack Askew signing the contract to build the school, but there were two other people in between them, so it's just like, okay, suddenly, again, we have a horizontal photograph that I can't squeeze in for that. So, yeah, it's been it's been just a beast.

00:31:47,210	S4:
Do we have a copy of that here of that. The one that the historical excuse me, society didn't apparently care for.

00:31:56,530	S1:
Yeah, I got that. It's on the back of one of these. Just a second. Let me look, uh.

00:32:05,050	S1:
I just saw it.

00:32:06,090	S3:
So that one that with your map that you're looking at.

00:32:08,870	S1:
Oh, with this one. Okay.

00:32:12,950	S1:
Yeah.

00:32:14,030	S7:
Oh, okay.

00:32:22,070	S1:
You remember that?

00:32:26,310	S7:
Well, you know.

00:32:29,550	S4:
It's interesting that it. It gives it's giving the neighborhood a logo. I think as we talked before. In a way, you know that.

00:32:38,830	S1:
Well, and that seems to have been one of the problems that it was. I think I think that our undertaking the banners, it was revealing to the city, to the state that we were doing a logo. We were using a logo rather than a banner that conveyed.

00:33:04,990	S1:
I mean, what what?

00:33:07,130	S4:
But it sort of conveys the shape of the neighborhood.

00:33:09,330	S7:
I mean.

00:33:09,650	S1:
It certainly does. It certainly does. It certainly does. If we'd stuck a historic district on the bottom of it, I would have been good to go. But, um, that was not the the indication from the state what they accept would believe was something that was suitable.

00:33:26,650	S4:
Would it make any sense to discuss this later after the meetings over with to.

00:33:31,010	S1:
Well, I think we have to make it.

00:33:33,650	S7:
We have permission.

00:33:34,330	S1:
Now. Yeah.

00:33:35,050	S7:
Okay.

00:33:35,570	S1:
Yeah. Because we've got to get the it's it's a it should have been decided a while ago. And, and now we have a funding deadline. Um, so, you know, I guess as we're this is still our first agenda item. Um, what do we what do we think about it? Do we think that we can tweak these changes and that you would be we would be okay with it, not 100% thrilled.

00:34:24,270	S1:
Um.

00:34:25,990	S4:
I can just think of a lot of things that would add time to the processes.

00:34:29,310	S7:
But.

00:34:29,990	S1:
Well, I know, I mean.

00:34:31,790	S4:
It's because I'm a late comer, I think.

00:34:33,310	S1:
Well, but the thing is this, as I mean, we we've had a few weeks to push the push the button on it. And um, given the kind of complexity and the fact that we actually thought we were kind of had what we were going to probably use and nobody was worrying about it, and now we're worrying about it, and this is the solution that we've been working on. Yes.

00:35:00,990	S3:
So Chair Sexton, I don't it seems like there's so many tweaks, it's hard to know at this point. Is it possible that we could put the border on, change the color, or put the text, you know, make the text visible and, um, email it out to us for review? Is that possible to do so that we don't have to miss the deadline? But we can we can go on.

00:35:26,860	S5:
Uh, uh, Commissioner Nodland chair Sakariassan commissioners. Um, that would be fine. I would just ask that when you give your comments or feedback for it, just respond to me individually instead of as a group. Otherwise that might cause some issues. So just respond individually to me with that once, um, we can get the updates to it and then if that'll be fine with everyone.

00:35:53,260	S1:
Um, I think that that will be fine. You know, we're the only thing we're, we're working with is is Blake schedule. And I think that these aren't significant enough changes that will make him have to, like miss work. Commissioner Connelly.

00:36:12,720	S6:
Just looking around, I was trying to look for examples, and I look at the pictures of the walls. I mean, it's hard for the TV to see, but like I say, this one where there's not enough depth on the mat itself to where it shows a lot of white. The picture of the gentleman on the horse where it's so dark. If that had a little more depth and a little more angled where you'd see a significant white bead, it would cause enough contrast to where it would be more appealing to the eye with a little bit more white on the internal border instead of the dark. But you see how it all kind of bleeds together like it's almost one picture on the color. But then you look at the one on the left with the, um, here to where you got the white, you got the dark image on the center before it went a little darker, And then the really dark frame. That's how the eye travels within that. So if you like, essentially post a pin stripe around that corner with the dark letters at the bottom, and then you have those contacts, especially where the map is or the drawing of the house. You're trying to draw those lines out as best you can, because it's the lines that are really hard to see. And that's what that border will do, essentially. Yeah.

00:37:23,860	S7:
Just well.

00:37:24,740	S1:
I do think that I do. You're you're absolutely correct. A border would make a big difference in making that. I mean, these are 40 by 20. And it would be a good way to to bring that in. I think that's something that probably when it went to the to the print people, they'd probably say, yeah, we're putting a, we're putting a line around this.

00:37:49,620	S6:
Um, and whoever's running the camera didn't know you could do that, but that's cool.

00:37:56,580	S4:
Also, the lettering, we need to either change the color or do something. So there's more contrast, a better contrast.

00:38:02,360	S1:
Well, if we're doing a dark beat around it and then do dark lettering, I'm.

00:38:07,120	S6:
Yeah, you can leave.

00:38:08,080	S7:
I have old.

00:38:08,640	S1:
Eyes. I have old eyes, you know. So, you know, I know that gray or dark gray is really difficult for them to get on a on a print thing in a solid. I've had some conversations about that. But anyway.

00:38:24,720	S7:
The.

00:38:24,880	S6:
Lighter green. I think you could leave if it was white with the darker all the way around and everything is same. I think it would catch it.

00:38:32,800	S1:
I can't see the lettering, right?

00:38:35,120	S6:
Well, well, no, what I mean is you got your green down below with the white, and then you got the green here before you get the picture. The color here can stay to create the disparity of contrast. But then the white down below with dark letters. I think it'll pick up. Yeah.

00:38:52,320	S11:
Well, if those.

00:38:53,120	S1:
Are changes that we're pretty sure we can get Accomplished in time to move things along and to give us something to look at.

00:39:06,820	Um, can we make a provisional? S2:
Uh, if.

00:39:08,140	S5:
You would like. Chair Sakariassan commissioners. Uh, we can make those adjustments and give you enough time to get those comments to us. Um, and then at the next meeting, we can finalize that design, if that's okay. Um, I guess the priority for this specific item would be to figure out who we're contracting with for the banners, so.

00:39:32,820	S1:
Well, I don't think any of us have had a problem with Indigo. It's coming in low and they have been they've done a lot of work I think we're all acquainted with. So if at this point the correct thing would be to move the to to have somebody suggest make a motion that we do, um, go with Indigo and accept their accept them as the people who will do the.

00:39:57,800	S7:
So moved.

00:39:59,360	S1:
Do you have a second?

00:40:01,240	S10:
Second.

00:40:02,360	S1:
Okay. We have a motion from Commissioner Connelly and a second from Commissioner Jackson. Any more discussion on the selection of the banner people? Hearing none. Sandra.

00:40:17,920	S2:
Commissioner Jackson.

00:40:19,280	S7:
Yes.

00:40:19,920	S2:
Swanson.

00:40:20,800	S7:
Yes.

00:40:21,400	S2:
Nodland. Yes. Connelly.

00:40:23,480	S7:
Yes.

00:40:24,080	S2:
Engel. Yes. Chair. Sakariassan. Yes.

00:40:28,000	S1:
All right. That passes.

00:40:30,800	S5:
Chair. Sakariassan. Commissioners. One final thing for the 2022 grant update. Um, at your previous meeting, uh, us staff to renew the contract with Talking Trails for an additional two years and to investigate the usage data. Um, uh, for this resource, the contract has been renewed using part of the remaining 2022 HPF grant fund. The usage data for the past two years is provided on the screen here.

00:41:07,910	S5:
This data is a combined total of the mobile app and dial in system usage. There is additional usage happening on the web page, but they're not able to track that data. The company has stated that other clients who have created a pro share for this resource have seen an increase in their usage numbers, if that would be something you would be interested in. I have included an example of this, so this would just include an exterior and interior view of that, but that could be something to discuss at a later time. It's just for your reference here.

00:41:47,190	S5:
No additional action is needed. Just for your information here. Sorry.

00:41:53,810	S1:
I like those ones where there's no action. Yes we do.

00:42:01,650	S1:
Especially if we want to think about it more.

00:42:06,130	S1:
All right. Um, so. And actually, that is one thing that I think that we need to think about with the talking trails thing is that later on, now that we have another historic district, we should probably get at least one talking trail, try to develop another talking trail that relates to Highland Acres. And as as we move along, the next time we talk about walking trails, we might want to add something. All right. Now. So we've got we're done with that item. And now we are on to the 2023 Historic Grant. Grant. Historic Preservation Fund grant update.

00:42:50,130	S5:
Uh, chairs Sakariassen commissioners. At your previous meeting, you directed staff to print 1500 Downtown Historic District, then 1500 Cathedral Historic District walking tour maps. Um, as there's only about half a box left of each of them. Uh, this was done. We do have the completed maps, and it has been taken out of the 2023 grant funds. Um, additionally, the Highland Acres Historic District map designs are still being finalized. Staff will keep you updated as this progresses. Uh, as in, when the designs are finalized, staff will obtain a quote for the 3000 maps for this. No action is needed on this item at this time.

00:43:32,670	S1:
I do have a faint mockup of.

00:43:36,230	S2:
What.

00:43:37,910	S1:
What we were looking at for how it might look like it won't show on the television, but later on, if people want to take a look at how this would fold up, this would be the size that we're looking at for the Highland Acres walking right now. So it's got a lot of space to fill.

00:43:59,930	S4:
And so are these fairly hot off the breast in these. Uh oh, these are the old ones.

00:44:07,730	S5:
Those are the old ones. So those ones, it's basically the same concept, Commissioner Swanson. It's just it won't have the 150th year, uh, logo on there, but everything else in there is the same.

00:44:18,570	S4:
Okay, I got these at the historical society, so we better change their their their supply. Their supply.

00:44:26,330	S1:
Yeah. All right. Um.

00:44:31,250	S5:
Uh, chair. Ackerson. Commissioners. Uh, another item under this agenda item is the conference attendance at your previous meeting in January. Only one of the two commissioner spots was filled to attend the NABC conference in Florida at the end of July and at the beginning of August. Some things to note for this registration has still not opened, and we are also currently in the process of filling a seat on the commission. This might not affect your decision here today, but it's just something to consider.

00:45:06,470	S1:
What were those dates? Again, it was the end of July.

00:45:10,150	S5:
Choice and commissioners. It is from July 30th 1st to August 4th.

00:45:20,430	S2:
Okay.

00:45:23,190	S1:
Um, and if we if we end up not having two people, two commissioners that are, that are able to go. Um, when I mean, obviously we have to know before we do the registration, but what happens with the, uh, can we redirect the funds that that were out to be allocated for that a useful way.

00:45:50,290	S5:
Chair Sakariassan commissioners, I can discuss with the state to see if there would be any issues moving some of the funds around, potentially to help with banners or any other things. Um, I could discuss that with the state about that, but it's up to you guys how you would like to do this. There is another commissioner who would like to go. Um, that would obviously take precedent.

00:46:17,370	S1:
And we had only, I think, believe we only had Commissioner Engel, who threw her hat in the ring for that one. Um, but we we do have another member coming on.

00:46:47,600	And if the, um, if the registration has not opened yet, would it be appropriate for us to wait and see if that new person might be willing to to go? S5:
Chair Sakariassan Commissioner is. It is up to you. If you would like to hold this item over until the next meeting, we can do that as well.

00:46:57,160	S1:
I think everybody looks like we'll be happy to hold that one over.

00:47:05,760	S2:
So.

00:47:07,360	S5:
Um. Sure. Sakariassen commissioners, the final, uh, I guess portion of this agenda item is an update on the downtown banners. Uh, members of the downtown Streetlight Banner subcommittee, uh, have met with representatives from the state, both the state historical Society as well as MnDOT, to discuss the opportunities this project presents to highlight this district. Preliminary locations for the banners have been drafted and several designs have been proposed during the subcommittee meetings. Uh, the subcommittee hopes to meet again in February to narrow down the proposed locations, themes and designs. Committee Commissioner Beth Nodland will give a brief presentation on the elements of this district shortly, so.

00:47:58,740	S2:
Thank you.

00:48:08,020	S1:
So I guess it's up to you, ma'am. Yep, yep. We didn't test make any more.

00:48:20,980	S3:
Hi, Commissioner. Fellow commissioners, I just want to make clear I'm here today representing myself and not the HPC. And I just want to share some information. There's no action needed with this. Um. Uh, I'm not really talking about the banners right now. I just want to talk about the downtown district, because this is something that we are going to be facing in the coming years, and I am not an expert in the district. There are experts in town and available to us as we as we move forward. So I have after this eight slides and I'm going to go kind of fast through them. And so I just want to, um, share this information with you, because when I started working on this project, I've been working with that downtown nomination district for 20 years. And when I took a deep dive into it, it really didn't turn out to be what I thought it was. So maybe this will be of interest to some of you.

00:49:28,360	S3:
Okay, so I'm not going to go into the details of how you nominate or how it's designated, but I want to talk about a couple of elements that I think are important to us for understanding our downtown historic district. Um, the the first one is that it doesn't have to be a particular shape. It can be a square or a rectangle, a long trail. It it's a collection of buildings or archaeological sites that, um, come together in a way that speak to each other and hang together and tell a story together. So, um, in our case, we have a residential district, we have two residential districts, and we have our commercial district. Um, there are a lot of different ways that you can create the importance of it. And so I'm going to talk about hours. So there are 2300 historic districts in the United States. And North Dakota, I think is about 46. That's where we're at. The downtown commercial districts like ours are Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot, Dickinson, Jamestown, Mayville, Castleton, Bismarck, and amendments. Those are some of the commercial downtown districts. And so, um, ours is unique in and of itself. They always are. And so ours was nominated in 2001. A firm was hired to do the research, to write a nomination form, to put together an argument that said, all these disparate buildings mean something together. They tell a story of the Bismarck. Um, it was it was nominated in 2001. It was reviewed at the state level, reviewed at the federal level. It was accepted. It was designated and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2001. And it's available online if anyone wants to go find that. Um, I was I learned that it had been amended in 2012 and that there is, uh, one of the buildings downtown had been revisited, And a recommendation for a change. And so in 2012 there was an update, some corrections, a little minor things, but in reality we are sticking with the 2001 boundaries, the 2001 definitions, the themes, the counts. Um, so this is the Downtown Bismarck Historic District. It is a very condensed 11 city blocks. It's not a rectangle. On the far right side. There are three outliers, and it's the county courthouse. I don't know if you can see the blue lines on this very well, but the county courthouse is out there. Bill Mason, World War Memorial building and down on Main Street, the the what is Civic Square now? But it's it's very it it's very delimited and we only are dealing with the buildings within that boundary. There are 76 buildings inside that boundary. It only goes as far north as there, except for the courthouse. It doesn't go south of the tracks.

00:52:45,920	S3:
So of the 76 buildings, 55 of them are considered historic and contributing. 21 of them then, are not contributing. Either they're too too young or they've been renovated too much. But I need to stress that it's they all count as a whole. All 76 buildings within the boundaries of that district. So it's like a think of it. And the best example I saw was like a football team. Not everybody's the quarterback, not everybody's first string. But everybody on the team contributes to the to the process. So of our 76 buildings that were in that nomination in 2001, three have since been destroyed. 11 all are listed individually on the National Register of Historic Places, and 18 of them probably are eligible alone. But again, the story of a district is the story of how they all hang together. How are they associated? What are their. What are the themes and what are the time periods that that are important? So the author of our historic district nomination had to write the history of Bismarck and divided up into the elements that would make this particular one unique. And she wrote that our our downtown historic district is important because it's there are a series of groups of buildings that show the periods of Bismarck's history, a very long period of history. It shows the changes of the patterns that that Bismarck underwent, like when Bismarck started. Like most Upper Plains towns, there was a railroad track, and everything was on one side in a grid pattern. But that changes over time. There's a variety of styles and influences that represent the first 50 years of the. Of the 20th century. There is the work of three prominent architects and builders are represented in our downtown district. There's four small stretches of streetscape left from their historic periods that she chose and said these. These four stretches are are pretty cohesive to how they looked when they were built. And she identified three historic figures that were really responsible and involved in the development of the buildings in this 11 block district. So for me, it's a question of how are we as a HPC, how are we going to understand these 76 buildings and how they talk to each other and how they create this historic district? How do they tell the story combined? Not individually. Not. You know, there's the beautiful landmark Patterson Building, or there's the one down at the end of Main Street. It's how together.

00:55:49,230	What are they telling us And how do we use that to help the city plan? And how do we use this district to have our citizens and our residents connect to the importance of historic preservation and tell their own stories? S3:
So these are the themes she identified. Commerce. Oh, that's changing commerce, transportation, architecture, civic and government buildings and industry. So in our in our 76 buildings. But I'm really going to focus on our 55 contributing structures. Of course we have offices and stores. There were three hotels remaining the Patterson, the Sioux and the Prince, which are now apartments. There were three apartment buildings that are in our district that the Norma and Hughes building, but that they're the in that 11 block district was a financial hub. It was the commerce hub for the western North Dakota, for Burleigh County, for Bismarck. So the commerce element theme is super important. We can tell a lot of stories on that. Super important, the train depot, of course, for transportation. But there's also a really interesting thing happening on the west end of that historic district. It was a very important place where the auto craze took hold. There were auto dealerships, auto garages, gas stations, body shops. Um, and I'm going to come back to that in a minute. Um, I mentioned the architects and the individuals. There are some civic buildings, the old federal building, that was the old post office on Broadway, the county courthouse, the Bellman House, and later the World War Memorial Building. And then the other one I find really interesting is the industry and the warehouse and distribution that I don't think a lot of people think about Bismarck. As for that role in the upper Great Plains, that building in the picture is the. If at the end of a main street at Mandan Street in Main, it's the it's the Anderson known as the Anderson Building now. But if you look at the top, you can see where it's at. International Harvester. Well, it was it was built for International Harvester as their warehouse and distribution center. And they had, uh, I would say from that building they managed about 200 dealerships in the, in the region, and they had a enough space in that building to store 78 train car loads worth of parts and equipment. And they were it was an important enough distribution point. The city let them build a real sideline off of across Main Street for the train. And so I it's one example of a distribution point Also along the railroad track. There were a phenomenal number of warehouses, and I don't think we think about them enough. But if you think of that building, the Civic Square, it was the Bismarck grocery warehouse. It was a very important point. They had originally been a little way down towards Camp Hancock. There were other grocery warehouses in that area, and grocery distribution was super important to the history of Bismarck. Fruits and vegetables and grocery. And there are we have three important warehouse buildings in our district still standing that we don't know about. We don't talk about very much. There was a fruit. The Stacy Fruit Company eventually became Nash Finch. And and we have a lot of families in Bismarck whose parents and grandparents have worked for these companies. So warehousing and distribution is an important story, a part of our downtown historic District.

00:59:29,160	S3:
Okay, then. Then our author of our nomination form had to come up with district with time periods of significance. Because this is this. She assigned a very long time period, but broke it into four, and she assigned all the buildings and wrote a little historical context about these four periods of Bismarck's history. But I'm going to take the liberty to make it five.

00:59:54,560	S3:
Oh, I'm not going.

01:00:07,840	S3:
Okay.

01:00:08,280	S7:
Thank you.

01:00:09,680	S3:
All right. So, um, for us in our of our 55 buildings, the first the first category is the first ten years of Bismarck. We have two structures. That's it. Okay. Camp Hancock and the Dakota building, which is across the street, kitty corner from it. Those are the only two structures we have that represent the first ten years in Bismarck. And then if you notice, there's a 15 year gap where we have no structures whatsoever. Yeah, there was a big fire in 1898, and then there's a two year period she calls the first Dakota boom. Um, and this is a period when the buildings had burnt down. There was a little bit of a building happening, um, a depression, as many depression was ending. And so these buildings that are in this period, there's only six are things like the Webb Brothers building, the Lucas and O'Hara building, the home and building. So those three of those are three of those six downtown. So that's it for our first before the turn of the century. We have eight buildings. And so if we're going to weave the story of Bismarck before the turn of the century, we have the that's what we have. We don't we don't have anything from the bloody fourth era. We don't have anything from that missing 15 year period. The next two, I think, are really interesting because the most combined together is 43 of our 55 contributing structures. The first one, the second Dakota Boom was.

01:01:40,720	S3:
It was the period after the fire when everybody started rebuilding with instead of glorious, ornate three storey buildings, these were fireproof two story buildings. These were, um, more permanent. Uh, and this is when the streetscape that we consider historic now appeared. These were one and two story, flat roofed party walls, and they weren't set back. They were right up against the sidewalk. And that's sort of the preferred streetscape that our downtown design review board is, is suggesting. Um, it's those are the four when we have those four little stretches. That's the look of them.

01:02:25,980	S3:
After that boom came the inter-war years, and while the rest of the country was going through a depression, Bismarck wasn't. A lot of the old buildings were torn down. More and more buildings were built, especially these industrial buildings and warehouses. And then another thing happened in that period where was the the auto craze? So that's when our West End popped up and we had all of those dealerships. And that's when the architects started using new modern surfaces. All of a sudden there was marble and there was stone. And like at the CalFire building and the former Tulsa Frog building, that steel enamel paneling went on. And so that period where we have 23 buildings has its own story. It has its own group of buildings, it has its own connections to each other. And finally at the other end, there's only four, and three of them are related to the auto. And the other one is that tiny Bismarck Finance building on third Street across from the parking lot. So that's how the author in 2001 designated our periods of significance, and she assigned buildings to them. And she created the stories for each of them and said, this is why our Bismarck's downtown historic district is worthy of of designation.

01:03:52,600	S3:
So I've been trying to figure out where, you know, where do they. Where do they lie? What's where, what's been destroyed? And I and just kind of putting it all together onto the map and saying as, as we face the next couple of years with lots of road construction and lots of infrastructure, people are going to be coming to us and asking us for our opinion on, on projects and our recommendations. And so I just wanted one to be thinking about it is that we're not talking about things farther north, or farther east, or west or south of the tracks. Right now, the way it's bounded is this 11 block district. So perhaps maybe it's time to think about what comes next for our historic district. It's been a long time since it was addressed.

01:04:42,420	S3:
So, um, maybe we need to rethink about these categories or these time periods. Maybe we need to put it in our strategic plan. Maybe we need to look at the 20 years that have passed since she did it. Now there's another 20 years, which the 50s and 60s were very important in Bismarck. She ended in 1951 because that was a point when there was an oil boom, when oil was discovered in western North Dakota. And so she said, we're going to stop here because all these things happened. The Garrison Dam gets put in, people start building to the south, the interstates coming. That's going to change everything. So she picked 19 or, you know, kind of arbitrarily picked. 1951 as the end.

01:05:24,490	S1:
Well, in 2001.

01:05:26,050	S3:
So yes. And we had a 50 year look back of what's considered historic. So now we're 23 years, 22 years down the line. So maybe we need to be looking at the next period of significance. Maybe it's an addendum, maybe it's something else. But basically I just this is I want to make sure everybody understands what we're talking about is particular buildings, particular stories, particular periods, significance.

01:05:55,090	S3:
And I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm not a historic district expert, but I'll send you to get the answers.

01:06:03,570	S7:
For this old.

01:06:05,610	S4:
Historic brochure I have here. Has a map. Nice map now of downtown with all of the buildings numbered on them. I mean, you know, I don't know with the pictures that went along with them, I suppose something like this is in the future that's being worked on.

01:06:20,390	S1:
No, no, we did that.

01:06:21,510	S3:
That's what we.

01:06:21,990	S4:
Did.

01:06:22,670	S2:
We did those.

01:06:23,150	S4:
Oh, I thought you were giving me the impression that this was old.

01:06:25,430	S1:
Oh, no, we did those.

01:06:26,590	S3:
We just did those.

01:06:27,510	S12:
Oh, yeah.

01:06:28,310	S4:
Okay, well, I just found.

01:06:29,950	S12:
These at.

01:06:30,630	S4:
The State Historical society, and they're. They're there.

01:06:34,350	S12:
Yeah. No, we we I see hopefully they're all over town.

01:06:37,470	S4:
Yeah. Right. Well.

01:06:38,710	S12:
But.

01:06:39,430	S1:
But it is true that, um, when that when the district boundary was first drawn by whatever her name was, um, she was, you know, you always had to look at a cutoff point and the 50 year, I mean, you know, she wasn't contracted to look for ahead. At that point, you didn't quite as much forecast.

01:07:02,510	S3:
And there was no Google Earth, and there were no digitized newspapers. And there was the archives were really, you know, microfilm and microfilm.

01:07:08,990	S1:
You're you're you're correct in, in, And, uh, calling our attention to looking at at what may come along. To affect this and maybe to to start thinking about, uh, defining the actual boundaries of the district are ourselves, rather than just going by the other, largely because that time frame has cut off. And the important thing to me in reviewing in the future, the, the parameters of the district, is that there really hasn't ever been a time that the town was deserted, that the downtown was deserted. It was never completely turned away from. I mean, people still had hubs down there. Even when I moved here, there were things that were gone. But, you know, you still had Tandy leather and you had, you know, festive. But so there was not a period of time where downtown stopped being an essential part of the community. Therefore, some of the operations.

01:08:23,270	S1:
Are integral to a functioning community. Continued to be downtown, post office, hospital. So a lot of those areas that had once had houses in or something that or things that burned, continued to have things being built in them to support the downtown. Not to detract from it, but to support it. And so when you are asking us to think about our buildings, talking to, you know, what they're saying to each other and what story that. That's what we need to to remember. Is that it? The downtown changed. It's changed Hundreds of times every building that goes up or goes down. It changes. Every urban renewal disaster changes. Things changes how? How what there is left for us to interpret. We no longer see the Hughes Electric building. We just see all the the icky metal stuff sticking up on the other side of the front. But that used to connect to downtown. And so we have to relearn. I think you're quite right. And, and re explore how to present our downtown story more in a more contemporary look.

01:09:52,050	S3:
Am I understand? Yes. And my understanding is that we can revisit this. We can revisit the categories and the importance. I mean, she chose the dates and made her argument. That's what you have to do is it has to be logical. It has to hang together. It has to have the, you know, meet the criteria of things that the nomination would or an amendment would, would require. But I just think we have this we're going to be facing a lot in the next few years. And and I'm just starting to understand this. And so I just wanted to share this with you so that we can all start to understand.

01:10:26,350	S1:
Well, thank you, Commissioner Engel.

01:10:29,070	S12:
Um.

01:10:30,270	S8:
Commissioner Nodland, um, I was curious. You emphasized the 11 block area, but the addition of the last 20 years, um, the 51 through 74, is likely going to expand that footprint quite a bit.

01:10:54,390	Um, are you anticipating redrawing the district boundaries then? If we if we go down that path, or do you want to keep it at the 11 block? S3:
Oh, no. I mean, I personally think it's time to look at what came in the 50s and then the 60s, and we're halfway, you know, through the 70s at this point. And so if, if, if we, if we want I mean that is a question. How do we do it. Where do we put it in our strategic plan. Do we do we break. You know, do we are we going to redefine these. Are we going to add two new periods of significance. Are we going to lump it all in? I mean, I think this is all the question that down the road that we should think about, how do we best do this? I mean, I know we're going to do Sixth Street next as we do. Yeah. But I just want to bring this on our radar so that we're not surprised or wondering what it is when. Because.

01:11:40,050	S8:
And we had talked. Oh, sorry.

01:11:41,890	S4:
No, we would.

01:11:42,610	S8:
I was just going to say that we, we had talked about making the cutoff 45 years so that we're ahead of the game and not just constantly following the period of significance that if we look at the 45, which will bring it up close to 80 now.

01:11:56,890	S4:
Minimal photo archives from the state, is there much available, uh, of in terms of photographs before the fire.

01:12:06,360	S1:
There are.

01:12:07,240	S4:
There are some.

01:12:07,920	S1:
Scenes from before.

01:12:08,560	S4:
The fire. I mean, that's just a curious element.

01:12:10,520	S1:
Yeah, there are, there are actually there are actually some, some fairly nice ones. More. I think we rely on those poles or the Sanborn maps to see where things were. Yeah. You know the story. I mean, I it's sorry to say, but a lot of the story of, of downtown Bismarck, you can only learn through the Sanborn Maps.

01:12:35,760	S12:
Yeah.

01:12:36,080	S3:
And at least from that 15 year period where there's nothing I mean, we don't. And so if we're telling the story of history, Bismarck, we've done our sesquicentennial. We have our origin story. We know how to do that. And so now, if we if 43 or of our, our of our contributing structures are from this period, that's a story we we can bring the the citizens in, we can bring in the people who are still alive. Maybe this ties into the the Bismarck Historical Society's oral history project. I mean, this is the period of time where people are still alive. Their parents and grandparents worked in these places. And then if we add the certainly if we add this 5060s and 70s, we have, you know, this is this is how we get people invested in our, in our historic preservation.

01:13:26,100	S1:
Well thank you.

01:13:27,060	S12:
Sure.

01:13:27,700	S2:
Thanks.

01:13:29,300	S1:
All right.

01:13:31,140	S2:
Well, that was.

01:13:32,300	S1:
Gives us a lot to think about there. Gosh, that's what we needed more to think about.

01:13:36,700	S2:
Darn.

01:13:39,900	S1:
All right. Lauren.

01:13:43,500	S1:
Yeah, we're going to have to redo it. We're going to have to be a bigger one. Darn. It's all Bess fault. Um. All right. Our next item is the historic preservation guide for Neighborhood Reinvestment Initiative. Lauren.

01:13:57,540	S13:
Uh, chair Sakariassan commissioners.

01:13:59,300	S5:
On February 13th, the city Commission voted to create the Neighborhood Reinvestment Reinvestment Initiative. The city will be partnering with financial institutions here in Bismarck to offer reduced interest loans for eligible residential remodeling and renovation projects. This initiative will achieve several goals in the Comp plan related to housing, some of which include the rehabilitation of older homes and disinvested areas, as well as supporting the increase in affordable housing. Preserving and reinvesting in the historic housing stock in Bismarck is an important affordable housing solution for our community. The initiative's guidelines are included in your packet for reference, as well as up on the screen here. Um, I can flip through to the other page if needed. Uh, the HPC has an opportunity here to create a local historic preservation information guide to support and educate community members interested in this initiative. This would include just some information about a different aspects of the historic nature that you see in our residential areas, different architectural elements that are very common, um, perhaps some, you know, different do's and don'ts that might be more common in, uh, renovation projects, perhaps even giving some definitions that people might not be aware of, of what constitutes preservation, what constitutes.

01:15:33,860	S1:
Preservation for dummies?

01:15:35,660	S5:
Basically some well, it's not for dummies, but it's for the average person. Yes. Um, so this guide gives us an opportunity to really reach out to community members, um, and kind of, uh, get our foot in the door before any of these renovations happen. So the community is aware of how to go about doing projects in a responsible, historic preservation related way. If their house would need any of that or would meet, I guess, the 4550 type goal. And it's not meant to be restrictive. It's meant to educate and provide information for those homeowners. So staff intends to draft a brief guide for discussion and review for the next meeting. Um staff would like to ask the HPC to provide any additional information you think would be pertinent to put into this guide. Um, but it doesn't have to happen at this meeting. Feel free to email stuff afterwards, uh, with info that I can include into that guide. So this is more of just a heads up to you. Um, so thank you.

01:16:49,240	S1:
Thank you. Yeah, I can I can see that there are plenty of places that that, um, some. Of a way of giving, giving, educating and giving some information for people who might actually make a better choice if they have information to base a choice off of, you know.

01:17:14,300	S3:
Commissioner Chair Sexton, I notice on the second page it says that the property value has to be 250,000 or less. So I think that's an important thing to note that especially for if it's a larger, older, historic, you know, big historic structure that needs work, it might not be worth. It might. Property value might not.

01:17:34,060	S1:
Be might not allow it to.

01:17:35,580	S3:
250,000.

01:17:37,180	S1:
Well and you know there are you know, the things of course, I'm always concerned about are um, I notice on the one page where it talks about construction or addition eligible improvements might be construction or additions of a first or second. garage door dwelling unit on the property. You know, then that sort of thing. Then again, you when you start looking at that kind of thing, then you're starting to change the way. Um, uh, properties, the space that dwellings take up and on on their lot and how that affects neighbors and things like that. And so I think having people perhaps have a, an idea that you can be conscientious about your neighbor, too, and not build a garage that's 17 times taller than your house, which then, you know, I mean, and we we do not we historically we really don't seem to mind that. And I think perhaps, um, maybe some good examples would be nice to include. You know, I mean, if you're, if you're putting together a document that can help people. You can give them a photographic example of, oh, this sort of thing has been done in a project similar to the one that you envision, you know, adding aggression. You can find some good examples to put out there, rather than which also might help people be able to stand up to their builders who just want it all to be bigger and not perhaps conform to the style of the house or something like that. You know, there's some little guidelines that good pictures make good projects. I mean, good solutions because you give people, they don't amount people don't really imagine things very well. And I think John will I agree. So if you give them a concrete this is what it looks. This is what this sort of thing actually looks like.

01:19:49,150	S4:
If you do it, this is what you can do. And yeah, you know.

01:19:52,130	S1:
We can't stop you from doing that.

01:19:53,690	S4:
No, but this is this.

01:19:55,290	S12:
Is.

01:19:55,490	S1:
This is a really nice example.

01:19:57,570	S12:
Right?

01:19:58,410	S1:
Yeah, I think that's helpful.

01:19:59,970	S4:
Right in the line of, uh, uh, Commissioner Nolan's, um, point about the 250,000 being a ceiling. I think that's probably at least 100,000 short. I mean, and, you know, for an old neighborhood where you're looking at an older home that's been taken care of. But then again, if they're taking care of it, they might not need the incentive to do it either. But but in the same vein, I was thinking, well, this 4.99% and five point 2.25% could eventually seem really, really high or really low in one way or the other. But I mean, you know, so you want to paint yourself in the corner and say you've got a particular interest rate, you know.

01:20:43,770	S5:
Uh, Commissioner Swanson, um, chair, commissioners. So this actually it That interest rate was actually set by the financial institution, and it updates every year. So it'll be different next year compared to this year. It's just the rate the reduced rate that they're able to, I guess provide for these reduced interest loans. Um, but yeah, that changes every year. And the program is reevaluated every year. So, um, the city will be accepting applications, um, tentatively between March 18th and the end of October, the end of October. Um, so that's when we'll be accepting the applications. Um, and between October and the beginning of next year's, uh, application cycle will be, uh, reevaluating how the program went. What are the goods and bads of it? So.

01:21:40,230	S1:
I would be interested to follow what your what you did, what you develop to guide that. And it'll be very interesting for us. Anything else on that that anybody has questions about? Commissioner Connelly.

01:21:53,090	S6:
And so far it's just the one institution still. And there's a $2 million cap as far as.

01:21:59,610	S5:
So the Commissioner, Connelly, chair, commissioners, the institution so far that has been willing to partner is Gate City. There is discussion with some other financial institutions, but there's nothing set in stone with them at the moment. Gate city has set aside part of their loan funding for 2 million for this year, just for Bismarck. So they've set aside this for other communities who have similar programs to this.

01:22:28,410	S1:
So thank you. Commissioner Engel.

01:22:32,850	S8:
Do you know which other communities have this already in.

01:22:35,530	S2:
Place?

01:22:36,050	S5:
Um, off the top of my head. Commissioner Engel, uh, it's Fargo, West Fargo, I believe Grand Forks Mandan just implemented theirs last year, so they're kind of just reevaluating what they're doing. Um, so off the top of my head, those are the ones in North Dakota specifically that I've done that.

01:22:55,310	S2:
Thank you.

01:22:58,230	S1:
Any other.

01:22:58,630	S2:
Questions?

01:23:00,310	S1:
Thank you. And you don't get to go anywhere else because we have our next item is the historic preservation plan update again.

01:23:10,390	S13:
Uh, chair Sakariassan.

01:23:11,790	S5:
Commissioners, the creation of a historic preservation plan for Bismarck has been noted as the goal since the creation of this commission in 2019. You had previously discussed certain sections in previous meetings last fall. However, the preservation plan requires additional work and input from the Historic Preservation Commission, which is difficult to obtain via singular meetings. Creating a subcommittee would allow for additional discussion on the plan's topics, and would allow additional members of the community to participate in the creation of this plan. This would will make the document reflect what the community at large deems important for the city's historic preservation efforts. Finalizing this resource additionally should be a priority for 2024. If possible, staff recommends discussing the creation of a subcommittee and determining a tentative timeline to complete the historic preservation plan. A draft timeline and the most recent draft of the Historic Preservation Plan are provided in the agenda packet for your reference.

01:24:17,170	S1:
Thank you. Boy, this is this one just doesn't go away. I guess we're going to have to actually buckle down. Um, I think probably a subcommittee is the most appropriate manner. Do we, um, if that's something we should.

01:24:37,610	S8:
I volunteered to be on that subcommittee. This is better than design. I don't do design.

01:24:43,210	S2:
Do we need a motion.

01:24:44,920	S1:
To create a subcommittee?

01:24:46,800	S2:
Oh.

01:24:49,160	S9:
You sure?

01:24:52,040	S1:
All right.

01:24:52,840	S8:
Okay, then I make a motion to create a subcommittee.

01:24:55,360	S1:
On which you can serve.

01:24:56,640	S2:
I just like the second that.

01:24:58,320	S1:
We have a motion from Commissioner Engel and a second from Commissioner Nodland to create a subcommittee to get this thing done.

01:25:09,600	S1:
Do we have any discussion on that? Any seconds? Are there any comments by volunteers? Oh, well, let's get this done first. Yeah. All right.

01:25:23,240	Sandra, would you call, please? S2:
Commissioner Nodland. Yes. My Connelly.

01:25:27,520	S6:
Yes.

01:25:28,200	S2:
Engel. Yes. Jackson. Yes. Swanson. Yes. Sakariassan. Super.

01:25:34,440	S1:
All right. Now, do we have any victims for that? I have penciled in my little draft here, John, because I thought this might be something that you would, would kind of. Yeah. And you've already raised your hand.

01:25:47,660	S2:
So yeah.

01:25:49,020	S10:
I will volunteer to be on the subcommittee.

01:25:52,940	S1:
So we have two. How many do we need? Three.

01:25:55,860	S10:
We don't want more than three.

01:25:57,940	Do we? S1:
We can't have more than three.

01:25:59,220	S2:
Right.

01:26:00,100	S1:
Or they have to notice it.

01:26:01,740	S2:
Or do they?

01:26:04,620	S1:
Oh, you just mean you'll pay attention to it.

01:26:11,100	S2:
Okay.

01:26:12,380	S1:
Okay.

01:26:13,620	S2:
So there's three of us there. So there.

01:26:15,100	S1:
Are three. All right. We have Commissioner.

01:26:17,540	S10:
Are we? Is this something? You know, like when we formed the timeline subcommittee, we invited some outside folks to join.

01:26:26,740	Are we planning to do that here? S5:
Uh, Commissioner Jackson. Chair. Commissioners. Yes. That is what the intent of this was. Um, especially since this should be a community document and based on community input for it.

01:26:40,140	S13:
Um, so.

01:26:40,840	S5:
That's kind of the goal. Um, we can contact, uh, previous community members that you had for the timeline, but if they're not available to work on that, we can also contact additional members or any additional members from the community who would be interested in joining as part of this.

01:26:58,320	S2:
Okay.

01:27:01,200	S1:
So that's something you guys can work on. Well, excellent. Thank you. That one went rather quickly. It's usually crickets. Whenever we bring this topic up everybody goes, oh yeah I got a piece of lint on my cuff here I gotta deal with. All right. Um, now, Lauren's still up there, and we are going to discuss the review of the draft Historic Preservation Plan survey, which we all know. What my opinion of one of those questions is.

01:27:30,640	S13:
Chair Sakariassan.

01:27:31,760	S5:
Commissioners. A draft historic preservation survey was presented at your meeting in August of 23, where it was decided to revisit the draft at a later date. Based on discussion from that meeting, staff updated the draft survey for your consideration, which is included in your packet. The survey will be distributed online through the city's website and potentially other relevant platforms. Um, depending on, uh, decisions and stuff. For that, the draft survey is provided. As I said in the agenda packet, I also have it up here on the screen.

01:28:09,900	S5:
Um, although this survey is drafted primarily for the purpose of the historic preservation plan, it can provide additional information to base other decisions that the Historic Preservation Commission would do in the future or currently. Um, basically, it's kind of highlighting the public's view on the on Bismarcks history and our preservation initiatives through this commission. Staff recommends reviewing this draft survey and providing any changes or updates to the question. If everything looks okay, please let staff know how and when you would like to distribute this to the public.

01:28:52,120	S2:
Well, my.

01:28:57,720	S1:
I only had one. I had a correction I wanted to make on question 11 because of my grammatical fanaticism. Um, I don't like to end a sentence in a preposition, so we're not going to end it in, uh, it heard of, um, of what you have heard.

01:29:21,360	S1:
Would be what I would suggest.

01:29:26,360	S1:
And of course, I once again, um, don't for some reason, uh, it just is. It strikes me unnecessary and perhaps alienating to ask for people's gender. I don't know what it helps us with. And I think in this day and age it may be considered intrusive.

01:29:56,660	S1:
So that's that's my comment on that.

01:29:59,220	S2:
Commissioner I.

01:30:01,700	S3:
Chair Sakariassan I guess I would ask, is there a method that the city has currently that they send out surveys on electronically.

01:30:10,540	S2:
Because.

01:30:11,620	S3:
And then if it if there is could could this go on that and then could it go on. Uh, you know our, the HPC web page. And I guess the only thing that for the intended survey respondents is I'm wondering if there's a if there's a way to target to the residents part of it to make sure that we get some youth and some seniors. If there's a way to do that, maybe.

01:30:41,090	S2:
Take.

01:30:41,330	S1:
It to.

01:30:41,570	S2:
School.

01:30:42,250	S3:
Or.

01:30:42,410	S2:
Teachers.

01:30:43,050	S3:
Or I just want to try and make sure we have a spread of ages in our residents, if that. I don't know how TikTok.

01:30:55,330	I mean, how do people do this? S14:
Here. Commissioner Nodland commissioners. So there's a few different ways we've done surveys in the past. The the easiest and probably maybe the most suitable for this method would be to simply create an online survey with a platform we already utilize called survey one, two, three. And then we can place it on the city website and use our social media presence to advertise it. We've been able to get a number of responses just with even a few, a few mentions there. Um, now the other method is to do something more scientific and actually control the sample and and send it out to specific addresses, which is a lot more work and, probably not worth it for the level of precision you'd get. So, um, so we could we could certainly do it that way. And usually, um, Caitlin, um, is our public communications officer, and he'll usually run it for about a month or so. We'll keep it open for two months usually. And and it gets a lot of a lot of attention.

01:31:54,950	S3:
Is it possible to have a press release go out from the city to, I don't know, the, the list? And then would it be possible to have it mentioned at a city commission meeting, as if for the number of people who watch city Commission meetings? Could could it be promoted? They're just trying to think of you asked about marketing it or promoting it? Yep. Those would be so.

01:32:20,950	S6:
Yeah, that's just the same as it is here. We can mention that during another business. Yeah. And then I have ways to where I can share it as well.

01:32:34,170	S1:
Well, I would think that there would also be some, some places where um, depending on I'm assuming you would, you'd like to have a, um, a parameter on, on how much time, you know, you don't want somebody to answer this in five years when they find it in the drawer, you know. So there are there are some places that I would envision that just the library, you know, that some could be put there a few places where a lot of people have different ages go, um, that might be a place that something like that could be left.

01:33:15,330	S3:
So you're thinking paper versions?

01:33:17,290	S1:
I think there should be a few. If not, I mean, just because there are some people who aren't looking at other things.

01:33:26,610	S2:
Sure.

01:33:26,850	S5:
Sakariassan commissioners, we would, uh, so we could create a QR code that has the information to, I guess, scan and use. Uh, to do the survey, I guess. Um, and we could put that up at the library for about two months, is about the time that we tend to do our surveys. Um, if that would be okay with you. That way.

01:33:49,510	S2:
You.

01:33:50,070	S3:
I guess the question is, what about the people who don't use QR codes or the internet?

01:33:54,510	S10:
Do you? Does the city ever do hard copy surveys? Like put them somewhere where people can pick them up? No. Okay.

01:34:02,510	S1:
Oh, well, so much for that.

01:34:04,150	S2:
That's fine.

01:34:06,310	S1:
Yes. I did have to ask a server how to scan a QR code on my phone the other day. That's not pretty. Commissioner wrinkle.

01:34:14,270	S8:
Um, since it's clear that we're doing this electronically. Um, is there a way that we could make it, um, a two parter where they fill this out and then they say, well, if you're interested, we'll take you to the second survey that's disconnected from their answers. So it's still anonymous, but then saying if you want to work on the plan with us, or if you have any interest on serving on the subcommittee, it's a public person, then you can sign up there. But it's not going to get recorded with your answers so that it's not divorcing. Does that make sense? Okay. Did you guys follow? What? I was just fighting. Okay.

01:34:52,850	S1:
Only because we know you.

01:34:58,730	S1:
Um. So does that get you what you need? On on on that.

01:35:07,970	S5:
Um, chair. Sakariassen commissioners. I believe I'm okay with that. Does do all the questions make sense? Are you okay? Including all the questions, how they are minus that correction on 11.

01:35:21,130	S8:
Um, and the elimination of question 21, if we're do we need to agree on that as a.

01:35:34,510	S1:
Thank you. Yeah, I think that I don't think that that's just a I think we can just everybody seem to think we need to put that final point on it. And then it makes it 20.

01:35:47,430	S4:
Yeah.

01:35:47,830	S1:
Questions instead of 21. So there we go. Yeah. Yes.

01:35:53,270	S3:
I had I had a thought when I read this earlier and I don't know if it fits here or not, but is there would it be worth to have a question of like do you do you have does your family have historic resources or items or stories that you want to share? I mean, is that is this the place or not?

01:36:12,470	S1:
I kind of think it's not. Looking at the rest of the questions, I think it's a little broader.

01:36:17,790	S3:
Does the Bismarck Historical Society handle that for people who want to have local things or the library.

01:36:25,380	S10:
Well, so the Bismarck Historical Society has a fairly small archives collection. Um, people will donate things to us once in a while, but we're getting to the point where we have to be really strategic about what we actually want, because we don't have a lot of space. Um, I don't. To me, this survey is not necessarily the place for that.

01:36:46,260	S2:
So.

01:36:47,380	S5:
Commissioner Nodland, chair, commissioners, um, this would honestly just be an initial survey. We could always look at doing different types of surveys in the future that they don't have to be as long as this they might be, they could be a couple questions. So we could revisit that potential question in the future if you'd like.

01:37:11,780	S2:
All right.

01:37:12,660	S3:
Does that mean an action?

01:37:15,100	S2:
I don't I don't.

01:37:16,300	S1:
Think we don't need an action on.

01:37:17,580	S2:
That.

01:37:18,260	S1:
Yeah, I wasn't planning on asking for one. I wasn't planning on prodding people. Um. Well, then, Lauren, thank you.

01:37:29,320	And do we have any other business? S4:
I have a question. Do we? We get the mayor's resolved. Have we seen samples of the materials that are going in as we add.

01:37:38,360	S1:
Back to the mike? Lauren.

01:37:41,400	S4:
I just wondering where that stands.

01:37:43,600	S5:
Uh, commissioners. Uh Swanson chair. Commissioners, I have not. Uh, I dropped the ball on that. I have not asked them for those resources. I can follow up with them and get that information to you all as well.

01:37:58,720	S4:
They've got contractors working over there. I don't know what they're doing, but.

01:38:02,480	S1:
They're putting metal.

01:38:04,840	S5:
Uh, Commissioner Swanson, chair. Commissioners. I can also ask Lorna to come in, um, to talk about historic preservation or historic districts like you had mentioned at the previous meeting and also potentially discussed this specific building if possible. I can see if she's available within the next couple meetings, if that's another.

01:38:28,420	S1:
Yeah, and it might be helpful for Lorna to come in because if we are down the road looking at at relooking at downtown, I think we ought to understand what that entails as far as amendments and, and things like that to a National Register document. So that would be really useful. Thank you. All right. Well, if there is no other business then and nobody has anything else to say and we've all got a parking ticket now. Um, I will adjourn us until the March 20th, 2024 meeting.

01:39:05,340	S2:
Thank you.